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> <channel><title>Comments on: Calculating the Per Person Cost of the Bailout</title> <atom:link href="http://www.nodebtplan.net/2009/04/13/calculating-the-per-person-cost-of-the-bailout/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" /><link>http://www.nodebtplan.net/2009/04/13/calculating-the-per-person-cost-of-the-bailout/#utm_source=rss&#038;utm_medium=rss&#038;utm_campaign=calculating-the-per-person-cost-of-the-bailout</link> <description>A personal finance blog teaching you how to live debt free and use credit wisely.</description> <lastBuildDate>Fri, 10 Feb 2012 15:18:07 +0000</lastBuildDate> <sy:updatePeriod>hourly</sy:updatePeriod> <sy:updateFrequency>1</sy:updateFrequency> <generator>http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3.1</generator> <xhtml:meta xmlns:xhtml="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml" name="robots" content="noindex" /> <item><title>By: I am the 47%. &#171; Berin Kinsman&#039;s Dire Blog</title><link>http://www.nodebtplan.net/2009/04/13/calculating-the-per-person-cost-of-the-bailout/#comment-186856</link> <dc:creator>I am the 47%. &#171; Berin Kinsman&#039;s Dire Blog</dc:creator> <pubDate>Sun, 09 Oct 2011 18:02:07 +0000</pubDate> <guid
isPermaLink="false">http://www.nodebtplan.net/?p=2516#comment-186856</guid> <description>[...] to pay for over a decade of war that&#8217;s cost trillions of dollars . Someone has to pay for the bailouts of banks and corporations. Aside from Social Security, Medicare, Medicaid, and Unemployment, which people have to work and [...]</description> <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] to pay for over a decade of war that&#8217;s cost trillions of dollars . Someone has to pay for the bailouts of banks and corporations. Aside from Social Security, Medicare, Medicaid, and Unemployment, which people have to work and [...]</p> ]]></content:encoded> </item> <item><title>By: Randy</title><link>http://www.nodebtplan.net/2009/04/13/calculating-the-per-person-cost-of-the-bailout/#comment-169668</link> <dc:creator>Randy</dc:creator> <pubDate>Sat, 27 Aug 2011 04:51:30 +0000</pubDate> <guid
isPermaLink="false">http://www.nodebtplan.net/?p=2516#comment-169668</guid> <description>I&#039;m not economic genius, but just imagine 100,000 pumping all of those $8,000 checks back into the economy.  Stimulating!  (At least more stimulating than the actual effect the money has had)</description> <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m not economic genius, but just imagine 100,000 pumping all of those $8,000 checks back into the economy.  Stimulating!  (At least more stimulating than the actual effect the money has had)</p> ]]></content:encoded> </item> <item><title>By: Nona</title><link>http://www.nodebtplan.net/2009/04/13/calculating-the-per-person-cost-of-the-bailout/#comment-161173</link> <dc:creator>Nona</dc:creator> <pubDate>Tue, 12 Jul 2011 16:52:46 +0000</pubDate> <guid
isPermaLink="false">http://www.nodebtplan.net/?p=2516#comment-161173</guid> <description>Arltcies like this really grease the shafts of knowledge.</description> <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Arltcies like this really grease the shafts of knowledge.</p> ]]></content:encoded> </item> <item><title>By: Steve Wright</title><link>http://www.nodebtplan.net/2009/04/13/calculating-the-per-person-cost-of-the-bailout/#comment-42136</link> <dc:creator>Steve Wright</dc:creator> <pubDate>Tue, 20 Oct 2009 12:45:48 +0000</pubDate> <guid
isPermaLink="false">http://www.nodebtplan.net/?p=2516#comment-42136</guid> <description>So, it&#039;s only 8g&#039;s? Big deal! It&#039;s much better that the rich got the money than the poor family of three; heck, would would of family of three do with $24,000? Pay off bills? Credit cards? Their car? Keep up with their mortgage? Anyone who does not see the &quot;bail out&quot; for what it is &quot;stealing from the poor and giving to the rich is a fool. Big buisness and banks own the government.</description> <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>So, it&#8217;s only 8g&#8217;s? Big deal! It&#8217;s much better that the rich got the money than the poor family of three; heck, would would of family of three do with $24,000? Pay off bills? Credit cards? Their car? Keep up with their mortgage? Anyone who does not see the &#8220;bail out&#8221; for what it is &#8220;stealing from the poor and giving to the rich is a fool. Big buisness and banks own the government.</p> ]]></content:encoded> </item> <item><title>By: Karsten</title><link>http://www.nodebtplan.net/2009/04/13/calculating-the-per-person-cost-of-the-bailout/#comment-25038</link> <dc:creator>Karsten</dc:creator> <pubDate>Fri, 10 Jul 2009 16:43:34 +0000</pubDate> <guid
isPermaLink="false">http://www.nodebtplan.net/?p=2516#comment-25038</guid> <description>As a macroeconomist,
Please allow me to stress that Bob K. is perfectly right in his statements and the blog author&#039;s reaction to his first comment rather immature. One doesn&#039;t have to be able to do all the calculations, but knowing that any debt will incur interest is something any pupil should be able to do. Furthermore, the debt will tie the government&#039;s hands and reduce the ability to react to other occurrences in the future, in other words: the money spent to feed a dead horse that perished because of fundamental structural problems will be missing when another one with an injury needs a temporary support to pay the hospital. Golfing Girl and Kevin with the &quot;too big to fall&quot; note pointed to interesting facettes as well.
Nevertheless, all the discussion has been focused merely on the cost and pretty much left the benefit out of the consideration. It&#039;s a typical American thing when it comes to taxes, the reason why education sucks and why the times of being &quot;numer 1&quot; are long gone and an illusion of the past. The military is, sure, but contrary to populat auto-glorification, nobody else wants America to be the global police, so Andrew&#039;s idea is rather irrealistic. In terms of hours worked per day/week, vacations per year, per capita income, educational levels, crime, retirement and health care, public infrastructure, personal/individual and national debt, quality of construction and appliances (or quality in general), ecology, intact families, widening scissors between the rich and the poor or rural and urban areas, and so on, and so on, the EU and some other countries have long outpaced the US in all international comparisons. All that comprises &quot;quality of life&quot; shows that America dropped the ball a long time ago, just that the two entertainment industries (Hollywood and Washington) keep projecting the image of &quot;number 1&quot; because admitting how rotten the apple is on the inside and facing the consequences would be a shock for the public.
That&#039;s because taxes and governmental interventions and spending are regarded as bad per se  -- if it is not for a war, although wars are the most costly waste of money that one can think of when comparing the historical figures since the Roman Empire to the present. Sure, there are oil contracts in return, but the profits end up in very few pockets, whereas the costs are socialized across the entire nation. The military industrial complex benefits, the rest pays.
This brings us back to the benefits of public spending. Instead of only looking at the price, it is necessary to look at what you buy for it as well. Would the money be spent on repairing and upgrading the public infrastructure, education, ecology, new sciences and technologies, it could be considered as an investment and blessing for future generations. In this case, however, the money is wasted on supporting a system that has shown to be error prone, as life support for companies who couldn&#039;t compete in the market place, merely to keep a few fat asses on big sofas fat and happy.
The idea to distribute the bailout among the population is erroneous in the first place, because it&#039;s the population who pays for it -- not only the tax payers, but everybody in form of higher interest, less government aid because the money and interest are tied up otherwise, tougher credit conditions, economic downturn, and so on. Distributing the money among the people or tax payers would simply mean to take it out of the left pocket to stick it into the right one, with the inevitable loss that the apparatus of redistribution in between eats up.
The justifications for bail-outs are usually &quot;jobs&quot; and the &quot;little shareholder&#039;s retirement&quot;. The real reason are the big shareholders, lobbies and juicy commissions that flow for all the credits. If it was for the jobs and grandparents, the money would have to be divided among them, not among the population. Add to that schools/universities/students/teachers/scientists, welfare moms, unemployed, elderly and handicapped people -- dividing the fortune among those would result in an outcry, but it would stimulate the economy much better than dumping it into the same system again, where it ends up as electronic impulses in computers just like before.
Whether or not it is just and fair to distribute the bail-out among the poor and needy is a philosophical question, but from an economical standpoint, it would propel the markets immediately when increased consumption is the objective. These people do not own houses or cars, don&#039;t eat well, can&#039;t afford medicine or even see a doctor, cannot send their children to expensive schools. They have a lot of consumption to do that they never could afford, they would spend it, buy stuff, travel, whatever. Some of them will be smart and save a part in a bank account, which allows banks to hand out credits to the companies that need to purcahse more machines to produce all the stuff that is suddenly being bought, and so on.
We always bark and cry when a poor guy or somebody else who&#039;s just like us gets a break, because we believe that we deserved it more, so &quot;why not me&quot;? We tend to forget that the interest groups behind the scenes stuff their pockets in far more outrageous ways and we hardly ever complain as long as there are panem et circenses. For those interested in the subject, which has nothing to do with conspiracy theory but is sound and fundamental well-researched economic theory, read about &#039;Rawl&#039;s veil of ignorance&#039;, &#039;small groups versus large groups&#039; and &#039;New Political Economy&#039;.
Again, whether or not bailing out people instead of companies, capital and institutions is better, fair, just or desirable is a philosophical question. From an economic standpoint, though, if heating up the economy is the goal, distributing money among the lower social levels of society (the demand side) is far more effective than dumping it on the supply side all the time, because the demand will go to the suppliers anyway, but not the other way round.
Second, life support for industries that are not competitive cannot make sense in the long run, because it&#039;s a cost without return -- for a return, an investment is needed. Instead of supporting the American car industry, which hasn&#039;t really been on par with Asian and European manufacturers since decades, it would be wise to invest in sectors that stand a chance of survival and growth. This will create jobs in new sectors and thereby induce a shift of resources into productive areas instead of wasting it on battles that are already lost. Furthermore, supporting thousands of small businesses is a better strategy in terms of risk diversification, probability of success and wealth distribution than putting all of one&#039;s eggs in a single basket just because the giants are &quot;too big to let them fall&quot;.
Finally, a program of economic stimulation that is debt-financed is always costly due to the bound capital missing in other places and due to interest. A good, sound financing consists in higher taxes for those who do not have to hunger when hit by them. Spending more than one can afford is always twice as expensive and paves the way for another crisis in the future. Governments -- and their people -- need to learn to save for unforeseen circumstances and not spend more than their income. Now everybody will cry &quot;Higher taxes to stimulate the economy!?!??&quot;. Yes, in the right places, on the right subjects/objects/products/services, that can make sense. The bailout in its current form, without any clear vision, let alone implementation, of a reoprganization of the financial sector, does unfortunately not.</description> <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>As a macroeconomist,</p><p>Please allow me to stress that Bob K. is perfectly right in his statements and the blog author&#8217;s reaction to his first comment rather immature. One doesn&#8217;t have to be able to do all the calculations, but knowing that any debt will incur interest is something any pupil should be able to do. Furthermore, the debt will tie the government&#8217;s hands and reduce the ability to react to other occurrences in the future, in other words: the money spent to feed a dead horse that perished because of fundamental structural problems will be missing when another one with an injury needs a temporary support to pay the hospital. Golfing Girl and Kevin with the &#8220;too big to fall&#8221; note pointed to interesting facettes as well.</p><p>Nevertheless, all the discussion has been focused merely on the cost and pretty much left the benefit out of the consideration. It&#8217;s a typical American thing when it comes to taxes, the reason why education sucks and why the times of being &#8220;numer 1&#8243; are long gone and an illusion of the past. The military is, sure, but contrary to populat auto-glorification, nobody else wants America to be the global police, so Andrew&#8217;s idea is rather irrealistic. In terms of hours worked per day/week, vacations per year, per capita income, educational levels, crime, retirement and health care, public infrastructure, personal/individual and national debt, quality of construction and appliances (or quality in general), ecology, intact families, widening scissors between the rich and the poor or rural and urban areas, and so on, and so on, the EU and some other countries have long outpaced the US in all international comparisons. All that comprises &#8220;quality of life&#8221; shows that America dropped the ball a long time ago, just that the two entertainment industries (Hollywood and Washington) keep projecting the image of &#8220;number 1&#8243; because admitting how rotten the apple is on the inside and facing the consequences would be a shock for the public.</p><p>That&#8217;s because taxes and governmental interventions and spending are regarded as bad per se  &#8212; if it is not for a war, although wars are the most costly waste of money that one can think of when comparing the historical figures since the Roman Empire to the present. Sure, there are oil contracts in return, but the profits end up in very few pockets, whereas the costs are socialized across the entire nation. The military industrial complex benefits, the rest pays.</p><p>This brings us back to the benefits of public spending. Instead of only looking at the price, it is necessary to look at what you buy for it as well. Would the money be spent on repairing and upgrading the public infrastructure, education, ecology, new sciences and technologies, it could be considered as an investment and blessing for future generations. In this case, however, the money is wasted on supporting a system that has shown to be error prone, as life support for companies who couldn&#8217;t compete in the market place, merely to keep a few fat asses on big sofas fat and happy.</p><p>The idea to distribute the bailout among the population is erroneous in the first place, because it&#8217;s the population who pays for it &#8212; not only the tax payers, but everybody in form of higher interest, less government aid because the money and interest are tied up otherwise, tougher credit conditions, economic downturn, and so on. Distributing the money among the people or tax payers would simply mean to take it out of the left pocket to stick it into the right one, with the inevitable loss that the apparatus of redistribution in between eats up.</p><p>The justifications for bail-outs are usually &#8220;jobs&#8221; and the &#8220;little shareholder&#8217;s retirement&#8221;. The real reason are the big shareholders, lobbies and juicy commissions that flow for all the credits. If it was for the jobs and grandparents, the money would have to be divided among them, not among the population. Add to that schools/universities/students/teachers/scientists, welfare moms, unemployed, elderly and handicapped people &#8212; dividing the fortune among those would result in an outcry, but it would stimulate the economy much better than dumping it into the same system again, where it ends up as electronic impulses in computers just like before.</p><p>Whether or not it is just and fair to distribute the bail-out among the poor and needy is a philosophical question, but from an economical standpoint, it would propel the markets immediately when increased consumption is the objective. These people do not own houses or cars, don&#8217;t eat well, can&#8217;t afford medicine or even see a doctor, cannot send their children to expensive schools. They have a lot of consumption to do that they never could afford, they would spend it, buy stuff, travel, whatever. Some of them will be smart and save a part in a bank account, which allows banks to hand out credits to the companies that need to purcahse more machines to produce all the stuff that is suddenly being bought, and so on.</p><p>We always bark and cry when a poor guy or somebody else who&#8217;s just like us gets a break, because we believe that we deserved it more, so &#8220;why not me&#8221;? We tend to forget that the interest groups behind the scenes stuff their pockets in far more outrageous ways and we hardly ever complain as long as there are panem et circenses. For those interested in the subject, which has nothing to do with conspiracy theory but is sound and fundamental well-researched economic theory, read about &#8216;Rawl&#8217;s veil of ignorance&#8217;, &#8216;small groups versus large groups&#8217; and &#8216;New Political Economy&#8217;.</p><p>Again, whether or not bailing out people instead of companies, capital and institutions is better, fair, just or desirable is a philosophical question. From an economic standpoint, though, if heating up the economy is the goal, distributing money among the lower social levels of society (the demand side) is far more effective than dumping it on the supply side all the time, because the demand will go to the suppliers anyway, but not the other way round.</p><p>Second, life support for industries that are not competitive cannot make sense in the long run, because it&#8217;s a cost without return &#8212; for a return, an investment is needed. Instead of supporting the American car industry, which hasn&#8217;t really been on par with Asian and European manufacturers since decades, it would be wise to invest in sectors that stand a chance of survival and growth. This will create jobs in new sectors and thereby induce a shift of resources into productive areas instead of wasting it on battles that are already lost. Furthermore, supporting thousands of small businesses is a better strategy in terms of risk diversification, probability of success and wealth distribution than putting all of one&#8217;s eggs in a single basket just because the giants are &#8220;too big to let them fall&#8221;.</p><p>Finally, a program of economic stimulation that is debt-financed is always costly due to the bound capital missing in other places and due to interest. A good, sound financing consists in higher taxes for those who do not have to hunger when hit by them. Spending more than one can afford is always twice as expensive and paves the way for another crisis in the future. Governments &#8212; and their people &#8212; need to learn to save for unforeseen circumstances and not spend more than their income. Now everybody will cry &#8220;Higher taxes to stimulate the economy!?!??&#8221;. Yes, in the right places, on the right subjects/objects/products/services, that can make sense. The bailout in its current form, without any clear vision, let alone implementation, of a reoprganization of the financial sector, does unfortunately not.</p> ]]></content:encoded> </item> <item><title>By: Tim</title><link>http://www.nodebtplan.net/2009/04/13/calculating-the-per-person-cost-of-the-bailout/#comment-25001</link> <dc:creator>Tim</dc:creator> <pubDate>Fri, 10 Jul 2009 06:08:36 +0000</pubDate> <guid
isPermaLink="false">http://www.nodebtplan.net/?p=2516#comment-25001</guid> <description>Bite me, Andrew. I don&#039;t want to be a piece of traded equipment for hire to some leader of a foreign country that doesn&#039;t give a crap about my life. At least our leaders answer to public opinion and our generals actually give a crap if I come home.</description> <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Bite me, Andrew. I don&#8217;t want to be a piece of traded equipment for hire to some leader of a foreign country that doesn&#8217;t give a crap about my life. At least our leaders answer to public opinion and our generals actually give a crap if I come home.</p> ]]></content:encoded> </item> <item><title>By: Dan M</title><link>http://www.nodebtplan.net/2009/04/13/calculating-the-per-person-cost-of-the-bailout/#comment-24462</link> <dc:creator>Dan M</dc:creator> <pubDate>Thu, 02 Jul 2009 02:57:54 +0000</pubDate> <guid
isPermaLink="false">http://www.nodebtplan.net/?p=2516#comment-24462</guid> <description>One more calculation:
Since the &quot;rich&quot; are going to get hit with the tax bill for this, let&#039;s see what the debt looks like per &quot;rich&quot; tax payer.  According to the IRS, there were 6,630,582 individual tax payers who made over $145k in 2005.
$2.5 Trillion = $377,040 per &quot;rich&quot; taxpayer
$12.1 Trillion = $1,824,877 per &quot;rich&quot; taxpayer
OUCH!!!</description> <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>One more calculation:<br
/> Since the &#8220;rich&#8221; are going to get hit with the tax bill for this, let&#8217;s see what the debt looks like per &#8220;rich&#8221; tax payer.  According to the IRS, there were 6,630,582 individual tax payers who made over $145k in 2005.</p><p>$2.5 Trillion = $377,040 per &#8220;rich&#8221; taxpayer<br
/> $12.1 Trillion = $1,824,877 per &#8220;rich&#8221; taxpayer</p><p>OUCH!!!</p> ]]></content:encoded> </item> <item><title>By: Andrew</title><link>http://www.nodebtplan.net/2009/04/13/calculating-the-per-person-cost-of-the-bailout/#comment-22690</link> <dc:creator>Andrew</dc:creator> <pubDate>Wed, 03 Jun 2009 15:59:46 +0000</pubDate> <guid
isPermaLink="false">http://www.nodebtplan.net/?p=2516#comment-22690</guid> <description>We should make our Military a rental income to get money back...we could rent it out to south Korea rather than it costing US Money. Protecting the world it should be making us money! We could ge the debt done with fast!</description> <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>We should make our Military a rental income to get money back&#8230;we could rent it out to south Korea rather than it costing US Money. Protecting the world it should be making us money! We could ge the debt done with fast!</p> ]]></content:encoded> </item> <item><title>By: Hythane</title><link>http://www.nodebtplan.net/2009/04/13/calculating-the-per-person-cost-of-the-bailout/#comment-17987</link> <dc:creator>Hythane</dc:creator> <pubDate>Mon, 20 Apr 2009 00:31:53 +0000</pubDate> <guid
isPermaLink="false">http://www.nodebtplan.net/?p=2516#comment-17987</guid> <description>Excellent points made by all, especially those factoring in the future cost of government intervention in macroeconomics. I thank each of you for taking the time to help quantify and qualify the issue.    ...RAB</description> <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Excellent points made by all, especially those factoring in the future cost of government intervention in macroeconomics. I thank each of you for taking the time to help quantify and qualify the issue.    &#8230;RAB</p> ]]></content:encoded> </item> <item><title>By: Weekend Reading: Links Of The Week 4/18/2009 &#124; Man Vs. Debt</title><link>http://www.nodebtplan.net/2009/04/13/calculating-the-per-person-cost-of-the-bailout/#comment-17836</link> <dc:creator>Weekend Reading: Links Of The Week 4/18/2009 &#124; Man Vs. Debt</dc:creator> <pubDate>Sat, 18 Apr 2009 16:22:14 +0000</pubDate> <guid
isPermaLink="false">http://www.nodebtplan.net/?p=2516#comment-17836</guid> <description>[...] No Debt Plan calculates the cost of the bailout on a per person basis! [...]</description> <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] No Debt Plan calculates the cost of the bailout on a per person basis! [...]</p> ]]></content:encoded> </item> </channel> </rss>
